Anyone can drop a bomb

Post Reply
User avatar
Admin (Dietrich)
Site Admin
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Location: Pohjoiskalotti
Contact:

Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Dietrich) »

While trawling about on the ED WW2 forum section, I stumbled across this...
Air to ground is fine...I mean, anyone can drop a bomb.
Ref: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p= ... count=2468

True. Anyone can drop a bomb.

But can they hit? Can they destroy the target? And do they have the patience and aptitude to do it again? And again and again and again? And without getting shot down by AAA?

But given the lack of bomber pilots in SoW, it does seem that A2A might be the easy-kiddies-game?

But is that really the case? To check, I created a new page on the stats system...

Weapons statistics : http://www.stormofwar.org/?Page=dcs/stats/weapons

At the time of writing this, there were 2698 gun kills, 340 bomb kills and 247 rocket kills.

Draw your own conclusions.

User avatar
Admin (Philstyle)
Site Admin
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:36 pm

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Philstyle) »

Admin (Dietrich) wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:34 pm
At the time of writing this, there were 2698 gun kills, 340 bomb kills and 247 rocket kills.
Seems we might need to harden up the targets to make them less vulnerable to guns . . .

User avatar
Admin (Dietrich)
Site Admin
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Location: Pohjoiskalotti
Contact:

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Dietrich) »

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:27 am
Seems we might need to harden up the targets to make them less vulnerable to guns . . .
Partially. I think there are a number of factors here.


Damage model

Until DCS bring out their new damage model (DM), there will be problems. At the moment, an SC500 requires a direct hit on armoured targets to kill them, despite the massive concussive radius. Additionally, SD10 cluster munitions are effectively useless (too small warhead charge).

And (rant-alert!) SD2 cluster munitions a) no longer have delayed descent, b) do not scatter, c) do not sound on impact and d) do not have delayed/trapped fuses.

There is not much we can do about this. Bombs are not an ED priority, not for WW2, and esp. not for the Axis. However, there is target design, and here there are lots of things we can do.


Fortification

At the moment, most targets are soft and exposed. German defences should include bunkers and fortifications. Of course, tanks are their own protection, but I understand the complications of using tanks in all areas.


Infantry

This is an important one. Troops are vulnerable to blasts, but they are so difficult to see that strafing them is very challenging.


Cover

Units are often out in the open. They should be hidden by terrain, scattered among the trees and hedges or distributed through towns.


Distribution

Units are also often in bunches. Spreading them out will force jabos to linger in the area and will cost them more ammunition.


Movement

This is no longer possible as the JTAC can no longer "rescue" targets and move them to better (or simply different) locations. However, the static targets do make it easier for attacks.


AAA-concentration

If you consider the dedicated AAA sites, harbours, ships, etc., these are (in my experience) most conducive to bomb-strikes. You really have a single pass, throwing everything you have, and then get away before the shredded remains of your machine fall apart. As a target site, Grandcamp harbour on the 10 June mission is perfect.


AAA-distribution

I've also noticed that the AAA is usually placed in the target area. By the time it reacts, it is too late. Airfield defences should be around the perimeter, not in the centre of the base, and the same applies for other targets.


Scores

We are constrained by the stats system. But we could make some adjustments. At the moment a ground kill is a ground kill, whether it is a bunker, a tank or a single soldier. I know we have started making some inroads on this (V1 sites and ships), but maybe more is needed.


Balance

There are some novice pilots, and we don't want to make the missions completely impossible. So, having 1-2 easy trucks out in the open is fine. Someone can come in, strafe, and get out, thereby notching up a kill and getting the satisfaction of making a valuable contribution. But when the entire site can be wiped clean with a few passes of cannon fire that we have a problem.


History

However, I think before reacting, it is important to check historical records. What were the fighter-bomber units doing? What were their targets? How were they employed?

For the Axis side, there are some well-known examples (such as Bodenplatte), but these are exceptional cases. I can find very little information on the day-to-day operations of the Schlachtgeschwader, let alone the Allied equivalents.

Does anyone have any historical examples we could use as a guide?

User avatar
Admin (Philstyle)
Site Admin
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:36 pm

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Philstyle) »

Admin (Dietrich) wrote: Fortification
At the moment, most targets are soft and exposed. German defences should include bunkers and fortifications. Of course, tanks are their own protection, but I understand the complications of using tanks in all areas.
Good point... although the Atlantic wall (for which most of the WW2 assets are made) is overrun by the time SoW missions begin. Although I think a few of the smaller concrete bunkers can be used more, however I don't want to deploy those assets at units that were mobile . .
Admin (Dietrich) wrote: Infantry
This is an important one. Troops are vulnerable to blasts, but they are so difficult to see that strafing them is very challenging.
Also a single platoon takes 12 units, and more units tend to cause server lag. I typically deploy 20 to 25 units per "objective" target. There's really no place for a couple of platoons of soliders.
Admin (Dietrich) wrote: Cover
Units are often out in the open. They should be hidden by terrain, scattered among the trees and hedges or distributed through towns.
Targets "in the field" are almost always comprised of units hidden and exposed. Tanks tend to be placed on, or next to main road intersections if there are any, with the trucks and other support units parked along tree lines and next to buildings.
Admin (Dietrich) wrote: Distribution
Units are also often in bunches. Spreading them out will force jabos to linger in the area and will cost them more ammunition.
Not sure what a "bunch" is, but targets are typically (i.e. all field targets) arranged in patterns of 2 to 3 vehicles "near" each other in an overall group of 30.
Tanks are usually at the "front" side of a unit, with trucks and support vehicles to the rear.

Example:
Image

In my opinion, the main issue currently is that people are working out, after attacking some units again and again, exactly the best way to take out an objective (and which specific targets are the softest). Adding more missions to the server will be the primary ways to reduce this, as the odds of the same mission/target coming up again will decrease. I'd like to get to the point where people won't see the same mission again for weeks.
Admin (Dietrich) wrote: Movement
This is no longer possible as the JTAC can no longer "rescue" targets and move them to better (or simply different) locations. However, the static targets do make it easier for attacks.
Vehicle movement kills the server, in terms of lag, and furthermore moving units around invalidated the briefings and can too easily be used for mischief.
Admin (Dietrich) wrote: AAA-concentration
If you consider the dedicated AAA sites, harbours, ships, etc., these are (in my experience) most conducive to bomb-strikes. You really have a single pass, throwing everything you have, and then get away before the shredded remains of your machine fall apart. As a target site, Grandcamp harbour on the 10 June mission is perfect.
Cf: "units are bunched up and in the open".

I've deliberately Not included heavy or medium AA guns with many of the target units on the map. However, where targets happen to be co-located with other main infrastructure areas then the AA is far hotter than it is at the field units.
Most obvious are the airborne infantry, which did not have anything in the way of AA support.
Even the Armour, like the 7th armored was not really equipped with much more than light AA support. These units are simply too mobile for AA batteries. What AA support they had was usually not dedicated AA units.
This image below is the 7th armoured as of June 8th.

Image
Admin (Dietrich) wrote: AAA-distribution
I've also noticed that the AAA is usually placed in the target area. By the time it reacts, it is too late. Airfield defences should be around the perimeter, not in the centre of the base, and the same applies for other targets.
AA guns are placed around the bases, and in some cases I've been able to build AA batteries which can cover a couple of airfields from a central location (i.e. Goulet/ Argentan/ Vrigny).
Here's Beuzeville, for example on June 11th. The majority of the AA gus are outside the perimeter, with a few Bofors runs inside the wire in the southeast. This pattern is pretty typical of the flak on SoW unless the airbase is within artillery range of the front line.

Image

I'm not aware of a single AA gun in the centre of a base, but there might be one or two on a mission.
AA guns need line of sight in DCS. Trees will block their fire. Usually the best places with good line of sight are.. across the open airfields, or on a nearby hill if there are any.
The placement of the guns at the fields is also in-part based on reports from Johnnie Johnson who describes, briefly the 40m bofors guns located 20 yards from his caravan at St Croix airfield.
Johnson also describes German MG AA placed on top of the hangars at their airfields in France.

User avatar
Admin (Dietrich)
Site Admin
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Location: Pohjoiskalotti
Contact:

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Dietrich) »

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:57 pm
Not sure what a "bunch" is, but targets are typically (i.e. all field targets) arranged in patterns of 2 to 3 vehicles "near" each other in an overall group of 30.
I think the situation is getting better. Earlier missions seemed to have this, whereas the later mission are much better. The classic "easy target" used to be Carantan 11-Jun Afternoon. Loads of soft targets neatly lined up around a clear field on the edge of town. Strafing bliss!
Admin (Philstyle) wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:57 pm
Also a single platoon takes 12 units, and more units tend to cause server lag. I typically deploy 20 to 25 units per "objective" target. There's really no place for a couple of platoons of soliders.
Perhaps. But a few (4-5) scattered soldiers in each group would then require some saturation bombing to take them out. Not all targets, not all missions, but certainly some.

The point is not so much the targets themselves, but the issue that there is no benefit for bombing. As a result, strafing is the norm.

That, and me being provoked by the "anyone can drop a bomb" comment. :-P

User avatar
19RAF MJDixon
Posts: 923
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:08 am
Location: Dispersal Hut, Fowlmere Aerodrome

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by 19RAF MJDixon »

Bombing? Strafing? I'll meet you in the middle and use rockets. :P
Image

User avatar
Admin (Philstyle)
Site Admin
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:36 pm

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Philstyle) »

Found an interesting passage in "wing leader" about the 2nd TAF attacking fortified/ "strongpoints" around Caen prior to the final large bombing effort. I will use this information to build these kinds of targets for missions.

Image

User avatar
Admin (Dietrich)
Site Admin
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Location: Pohjoiskalotti
Contact:

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Dietrich) »

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:45 am
Found an interesting passage in "wing leader" about the 2nd TAF attacking fortified/ "strongpoints" around Caen prior to the final large bombing effort. I will use this information to build these kinds of targets for missions.
Good find.

I am wondering if some of the "fortification" ground units can be used in towns. Taking your example, placing armed houses, bunkers, etc. could make for interesting "cores" of target groups. We do already have limited building stats, and some people have accomplished successes (EXAMPLE, although I'm not sure if those are bomb or rocket kills).

Bunkers at the V-1 sites would also be good (not sure if are any... they are not on my target list, so I haven't flown that way!).

Also, are there any left-over Atlantik Wall targets post-D-day? There the SK150 naval gun emplacements and various other coast defences. Maybe in Le Havre?

PS: Meanwhile, Herr Dixon should check the statistics before challenging anyone to rocket duels.

Angel
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:55 pm

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Angel »

Can I ask, when flying Blue attacking a ground target, it seems to be more heavily defended with AAA, or maybe the gunners are a higher skill level?

When flying Red attacking German targets I can strafe them for days without much return fire at all.

Is this done on purpose or is my encounter not common to the missions being built?

User avatar
Admin (Philstyle)
Site Admin
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:36 pm

Re: Anyone can drop a bomb

Post by Admin (Philstyle) »

Angel wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:26 am
Can I ask, when flying Blue attacking a ground target, it seems to be more heavily defended with AAA, or maybe the gunners are a higher skill level?
When flying Red attacking German targets I can strafe them for days without much return fire at all.
Is this done on purpose or is my encounter not common to the missions being built?
Both red and blue field targets (i.e. army units which are on the "front line") are approximately the same in terms of unit make up.
Armoured (tank) units are about 30% tanks, 40% trucks/ cars and the remainder is lighter armour with the MGs (these are the units that fire back at aircraft, such as the half track, the APC and the Greyhound)
Infantry and airborne units are around 70% trucks/ cars and the the remainder is lighter armour armed with the MGs (purely to give these units some kind of AA).
There are no "artillery" units yet on the missions, given the overall lack of artillery units
Targets on ports are relatively similar, although by far the most well defended target in any mission is Le Havre which has a number of large caliber batteries as well as numerous lower calibre flak and shipping guns.
If you can get in and out of Le Havre (14th June mission) as an allied pilot, and hit a ship, without another aircraft nearby to draw flak, then I'd love to watch the video. I almost got shot down at 10,000ft.

The half-tracks on the German side and the APC21 on the Allied side are the main "flak" (MG AA) units for the field targets. They are pretty similar in terms of how they respond to aircraft.
Fixed guns are not used at field units.

Post Reply

Return to “DCS - Main Discussion”