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This - rather . . . interesting comparison (IL2 v DCS)

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This - rather . . . interesting comparison (IL2 v DCS)

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:19 am

This popped up on my newsfeed this week. I've been meaning to make a comparison video myself of these two aircraft so to see someone had done it now piqued my interest - to see what aspects they reviewed and how the machines compare in their opinion.

Unfortunately the video is rather poorly done, IMO, and the bias seems to peak through via a series of stacked tests and claims made by the creator.
Some things I noticed:

1. It seems that he was very inexperienced with the DCS Spit and DCS in general. The views were awful (max FoV) making DCS look distorted as well as him admitting that he was still in the process of sorting his key bindings in DCS whilst making the video. He still doens't have some critical bindings even later in the video and relies on the mouse to move trims along.

2. There was no comment on visual fidelity. Cockpit model /lighting etc. Although with 4k textures proposed soon for IL2 it would not be fair to review them side by side right now. But it could have been mentioned.

3. The stall buffet is described as "extreme". I am unsure why he says this, what does "extreme" mean? Does it start too early? Does it shake to violently? Does it remain over too-long an airspeed and AoA range?
Yes, there is an obvious pre-stall buffet in the DCS spit, so obvious that you can hold the aircaft on the buffet during a turn. But this is entirely in keeping with the actual aircraft. Geoffrey wellum talked about how RAF pilots would ride the buffet all the way around turns in order to shake 109s. Granted these were eailer models that Wellum referred to, but the wing design is largely the same. The elongated buffet experience is a real spitfire feature, and is not just a "DCS thing".

4. At 14:30-ish he has the IL2 Spitfire with its nose in the air with very high AoA. His airspeed is showing 80mph IAS and he is severely out of trim... and the aircraft still responds to roll inputs and keeps flying. This is absurd. His summary that this is "a little bit too stable" gives IL2 far too much credit, if you ask me.

5. During his landing, he complains that the spitfire will not settle down onto the tarmac. But he doing 90mph IAS, and there is a massive headwind. You can see the headwind if you look to his 2-oclock poisition at 18:30 in the video. There is some smoke from buildings in the middle-distance that is almost horizontal. This incicates around 7m/s wind in DCS, from memory, which is ann extra 15mph airspeed! No wonder the aircraft keeps flying. In the IL2 vidoe, of course, he stacks the deck by having ZERO wind. See at 20:54, the wind sock is flaccid.
This is one of the most egregious examples of un-fair comparison in the video.

6. Finally, he goes on a discussion of price/ value at the end.
It seems his analysis is heavily reliant on the old "push buttons" as the diference between the two machines. Amnyone with a few hours in the DCS spitfire knows that it goes far beyond that. Having all the cockpit stuff "clickable" emans that all the systems are modelled. Fuel pressure valves, fuel pump, and the use of the main/ auxilliary fuel systems requires the pilot to actual monitor and sue those systems in 'DCS. Anyone who has flown up to altitude and experiences the drops in fuel pressure ,. or who has had to juggle the process of offloading fuel tanks (internal tank on, external off, jettison external) will know this.
The start-up procedure in DCS is about far more than just "automating what I refer to as 'chimpanzee work" as one commenter thinks. You can mess the startup in DCS. Overprime due to failure to note OAT, fllod the engine with poor mixture / throttle use etc. It's about airmanship. The removal of airmanship requirements like this pushed IL2 more towards the realms of "gaming" as opposed to simulation.

I've spent 100 or more hours in the DCS spitfire. per hour, it's cost me 50c per hour.
As for Bodenplatte, I've used it for a total of aorund 15 hours; 4EUR per hour.
I don't care if the bodenplatte one comes with a P38 and a P47a nd some german aicraft. I'm not interested in flying those types. I have the type I want to excel in, and in DCS that requires a lot of time and effort.
That tells you which is better value for money for me at least.

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Re: This - rather . . . interesting comparison (IL2 v DCS)

Postby DD_Fenrir » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:17 pm

I'm with you Phil.

I'll be doing a bit of GBS with the squad in the future, but my heart will always lie with DCS.

When anyone pulls up the GBS flight models as being more realistic I point to the P-47.

Sure you have it in GBS, and we in DCS still wait.

But considering that ED couldn't find sufficient source data to provide them with the necessary aerodynamic characteristics and had to resort to Computational Flow Modelling in order to satisfy their apparently stringent standards, what data did the GBS team use?

Methinks a hearty amount of speculation and conjecture produced the GBS Jug FM...
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Re: This - rather . . . interesting comparison (IL2 v DCS)

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:30 pm

I'm not saying that the DCS Spitfire is perfect also. I know it has it's major problems and I've been vocal in trying to feed them back to ED.

What I find strange is that IFlyCentral actually ignored many of the serious problems that the DCS spitfire has because he seems to have put this video together without having spent any serious time in the machine (the rudder forces not changing at high air speeds, the persistent sunglare problems).
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Re: This - rather . . . interesting comparison (IL2 v DCS)

Postby Admin (Dietrich) » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:45 pm

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:6. Finally, he goes on a discussion of price/ value at the end.


I have all my games and sims through Steam, so I have a full account of my purchases and hours played. In terms of euros/hour for each of my aircraft titles, I currently get:
Code: Select all
BoX  :  1,39  €/hr
DCS  :  0,21  €/hr
RoF  :  0,15  €/hr
XP10 :  0,10  €/hr
CloD :  0,01  €/hr

But I have over 10x the hours in each of DCS, XP10 and CloD compared to BoX. (RoF is somewhere in-between.) Mind you, I'm still flying RoF, DCS and XP10. Although many people love BoX, I lost interest in it for a number of reasons and abandoned it. Each to their own, of course.
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Re: This - rather . . . interesting comparison (IL2 v DCS)

Postby EAF51_Jimmi » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:39 pm

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:I've been meaning to make a comparison video myself of these two aircraft so to see someone had done it now piqued my interest - to see what aspects they reviewed and how the machines compare in their opinion.


same thought here!
Honestly i would love to see your comparison!
Would be fun to compare some of the 2 sims Fm to some real world data too!...
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