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The "ubungsammunition"

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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:53 am

II./JG77_Kemp wrote:I think the point of this practice ammunition was to shoot at targets that were towed by other planes. They would blow up in the air before causing any danger to the towing plane, but that does not mean that they should not do any damage at all at close ranges. I think the point was also to explode (splash) on contact, so the pilot could visually see, what he was hitting.


Seems like you might be conflating two different rounds here.

for the übungsmunitinon:
"blowing up in the air" is not a helpful description unfortunately.
The round "self destructs", it doesn't "blow up" in thes way that most people think of when they describe something "blowing up". The reason for self destruct is to destroy the aerodynamics of the round which rapidly increases its drag and causes it to drop to the ground. The destruction mechanism is basically powerful enough to deform the round's shape.
This is ideal for range firing in particular where you don't want poorly aimed rounds disappearing 1500m beyond the end of the range, necessarily. It also helps in the air too, as the extra altitude typically means rounds will fly a lot further from the initial location and could land on some poor farmers glasshouse :)

The mass of the round is less than 13grams.

Beobachtung rounds:
The bullet that was "designed to explode on contact so the pilot could visually see" was not the übungsmunition, but the "beobachtung" (observation) round. This is a seperate round which is also modelled/ available in CloD. This round "detonated" a "small pallet of tetryl which in turn ignites the white phosphorus in the nose of the projectile during sudden deceleration" (wiki). This is also not really an explosive round - the round does not have a percussive/ explosive element. It was horrific against human/ animal flesh though, as you can probably imagine.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Dietrich) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:59 am

Here are some examples of bullets I've found (crashed Ju 88 A-4 near where I live). Sorry for the poor quality (I've got better photos, but just not on this computer).

http://www.stormofwar.org/images/lw/bullets1.jpg
http://www.stormofwar.org/images/lw/bullets2.jpg

If you look at the second one, you can see where the bullet has ruptured as the charge inside has exploded. I've not read up on ammunition types, so I'm not really in a position to comment further on this, other that to say that the bullet has definitely ripped itself open.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby StG77_CountZero » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:59 am

I checked data for armor of tanks in game and its correct, so there is no way in hell 7.92 mm would be able to penetrate and destroy Pz IVD, Matilda, valentain or Stug from front, what 7.92 can penetrate that tick ammo?

Also try it on Spit and youll see how it makes damage on it so easy, its not just that it blasts of parts like rudder elevator or alerons it does to big damage to airplanes. The way its modeled in game its best germa ammo in world, if it was like that in real why would germans use any other calibar of bullet, why go on slow bigger calibars when training bullet is so OP
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:03 am

Admin (Dietrich) wrote:Here are some examples of bullets I've found (crashed Ju 88 A-4 near where I live). Sorry for the poor quality (I've got better photos, but just not on this computer).

http://www.stormofwar.org/images/lw/bullets1.jpg
http://www.stormofwar.org/images/lw/bullets2.jpg

If you look at the second one, you can see where the bullet has ruptured as the charge inside has exploded. I've not read up on ammunition types, so I'm not really in a position to comment further on this, other that to say that the bullet has definitely ripped itself open.


Great shots (albeit blurry....)
You can also get a sense for how thick (thin) the projectile's outer casing is.
How much "explosive" force from the self-destruct mechanism would be left to go on causing further damage? Enough for three rounds to blow the horizontal stabiliser off a hurricane? I doubt it! lol.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby No.54 Arglmauf (KL-B) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:05 am

Admin (Dietrich) wrote:Here are some examples of bullets I've found (crashed Ju 88 A-4 near where I live). Sorry for the poor quality (I've got better photos, but just not on this computer).

http://www.stormofwar.org/images/lw/bullets1.jpg
http://www.stormofwar.org/images/lw/bullets2.jpg

If you look at the second one, you can see where the bullet has ruptured as the charge inside has exploded. I've not read up on ammunition types, so I'm not really in a position to comment further on this, other that to say that the bullet has definitely ripped itself open.


Nice find. Still, look at it from a bigger perspective: How much blasting power you think was behind that bullet? It did not shatter the bullet, it merely split it open. So you're losing the whole fragmentation effect. Remaining is the blast force which was already dampened by the bullet mantle. How much force you recon could really come from the blast of that explosion to burst into a plane compartment (remember that blast damage hinged on pressure effect on the cell it exploded in)? That thing didn't amount to much. My guess is it was a B-Patrone which was used by the LW because of the incendiary properties it had. I'm assuming here this bullet actually was a german bullet and is related to the JU-88 you mentioned. I guess it popped in the burning wreckage perhaps?
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Reddog) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:18 am

Yawn.

I loaded my nose guns with these things last night. Did fuck all damage to the spits I shot down from what I saw. Mind you that would be because the lag is so horrendous. TF need to prioritise the game breaking issues, now more than ever.

Some twats taking OP ammo knowingly can be dealt with or shunned.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:22 am

You calling me a twat Reddog?? :)
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Reddog) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:37 am

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:You calling me a twat Reddog?? :)
:lol:

Yeah. What you gunna do 'bout it? :lol:

Actually it was more a self denigrating comment.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby StG77_CountZero » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:41 am

Admin (Reddog) wrote:Yawn.

I loaded my nose guns with these things last night. Did fuck all damage to the spits I shot down from what I saw. Mind you that would be because the lag is so horrendous. TF need to prioritise the game breaking issues, now more than ever.

Some twats taking OP ammo knowingly can be dealt with or shunned.


Dont worry every axis player knows power of that bullet and its abusing it for years in clod, i stumbeled on it when i was recomended to only use that when i asked about what ammos are good when i started to play it more with 109s.
Problem is you dont know if some one is hitting you with 20mm HE or this 7,92 HE when they fly E4s, so they can say, oh not me i would never its just my 20mm that hitt u :D

Also its not players falt for being alowed to use whats in game done wrong, it should be fixed, its not normal to ask from players to not use the best bullet in game just because devs think its modeled ok but its buged.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Hiromachi » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:31 pm

Well, its not exactly related to German Ubungsmunition, but as a matter of fact there were small caliber explosive rounds used before and during WW2.

Since I'm primarily focusing on Japanese aviation I also have a decent knowledge in its armament and types of ammunition used by both Army and Navy. Both branches used either 7.7 mm Explosive or Explosive Incendiary rounds, none of them was fuzed but instead were designed to explode or ignite when copper jacket was ruptured on impact with target. According to U.S. Intelligence Bulletin of which I have a copy on my hard drive (if anyone is interested I can upload pictures later) the explosive round was capable of blowing a 3-inch hole in a sheet of aircraft duralumin.
Contents of such round were not that small in fact. Whole projectile had a weight of aprox. 10.69 grms., with "three" sections - first was main compartment with 2.95 grms. of RDX & PETN, inside of which was a smaller inner compartment with 0.20 grms. of RDX&PETN and behind it was a section called "hammer".
Whole mechanism was pretty simple, as when the projectile struck a target the hammer in the rear end would set forward crushing the explosive against the walls of both the inner and main compartments, causing the explosion.

This rounds were used in decent numbers and were reportedly effective against control surfaces and igniting unprotected fuel tanks.
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