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Thought I'd try out this career mode...

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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:59 am

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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby No.401_Wolverine » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:53 am

Hey Phil, still enjoying these so keep 'em coming!

I know you've been remarking about the ease of shooting down enemy targets, but have you thought about looking at this stat from the opposite side?

What would you consider a reasonable rate of shooting down enemy aircraft? For 12 missions, would you think say ten kills? Five kills total? Consider the number that you think would be reasonable and then think about how those missions would have to go in order to be like that. Either you're encountering almost no enemy aircraft over 12 missions of flight time or the enemies you're encountering are simply that much superior to you in ability.

It's a tough thing to manage, I believe. I doubt the majority of players would stick with the campaign if they didn't see regular combat mission to mission. The reality is just not as much "fun" as the fantasy for most people. I can't imagine many people enjoying a majority of missions that came up with results of 'went on patrol with reports of enemies in the area but didn't sight them and rtb'd low on fuel' or similar.

I'm not apologizing for the devs on this. I think AI difficulties should be FAR more tweakable than 'rookie' 'ace' etc. Along the lines of sliders for various behaviours that you could adjust for the various types of pilots you'd encounter to keep things interesting. Unfortunately, that'd likely be difficult to manage and possibly a lot of work on the processor with different routines for various types of pilots in each aircraft. It would be nicer to see some of the AI behaviour be less 'once engaged stay engaged' and a little more picky about when, how, and where they engage. That's probably the next stage of AI in these games. Engagement protocols that are a little more sophisticated than 'see enemy, start heading towards them'.
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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:09 am

No.401_Wolverine wrote:What would you consider a reasonable rate of shooting down enemy aircraft? For 12 missions, would you think say ten kills? Five kills total? Consider the number that you think would be reasonable and then think about how those missions would have to go in order to be like that. Either you're encountering almost no enemy aircraft over 12 missions of flight time or the enemies you're encountering are simply that much superior to you in ability.
.


Hey Wolverine.
I don't think games need to go "full real" and mimic the tens of sorties that chaps flew without contact, however IL2 career needs a handful of critical-changes IMO:
1. We don't need to make contact EVERY mission. Even if 1-in-4 missions went without (essentially even, numerically) contacts it would be a suitable improvement. The absemce of contact could be made up for with interesting weather conditions, ground activity etc.. to break up any boredom.
2. The AI don't need to stick around over the target area fo so long. Id' rather see mor hit-and-fade stuff from the AI, or when one side is clearly at a disadvantage, a quick departure from the combat area.
3. After 10 missions, the flight plans, altitudes and locations where the enemy are met can basically be guessed at from the mission briefing. For exmaple, we've exited to the same RTB wayoint on every single Bomber Escort mission so far. The bomber ALWAYS arrive at exactly the same height from exactly the same direction. Bomber intercept missions are ALWAYS the same: defending our base; and always the attackers arrive at about 2000m altitude. It makes predicting the enemy's actions too easy.
4. The damage modelling is not convincing. In recent missions I've been taking out fighters (which always -if their wings dont fall off- seem to bellow fire and smoke) with quarter to half-second bursts from just the MGs. They don't all need to develop fires or engine failures. This would increase also the number of damaged aircraft that make it home. So the player would still get "action".
5. In tandem with number 4 above, there should be recognition for the player's damaged/ assisted victories also. The last-to-hit-gets-credit system is a hangover from the 1990s that developers need to get past. CloD is one of the few platforms that actually tried to address this.

As with many games, often significant improvements can come from modifying a number of variables by modest amounts. The cumulative effect of a number not large changes can go a along way.

Anyways, Mission 13, during which I got 7 victories. Again, this was just a bit too easy.

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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby 19RAF MJDixon » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:15 am

I've had a few sorties with no enemy contacts during my fighter career, although they were usually when sent to do a defensive patrol over a river crossing.

In my Boston career I've had at least 5 missions now without seeing a single German fighter.
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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby No.401_Wolverine » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:23 pm

I think I'd agree with all of those items, Phil. I still think you'd end up with quite a number of kills (more than a realistic kill ratio for average pilot) but then again, I doubt most people play a single player campaign in order to be average or lower than average 4th section pilot.

Of all your items, #2 is probably the most possible to do relatively quickly with a tangible effect on the feel and outcome of missions. I'd very much like to see a 'fast strike' or 'linger over target' setting for ground attack aircraft so that these two outcome states could be added to missions. #1 could be done as well, but I don't think would be as nice of an improvement.

They have said they're going to continue to add content to the career mode, so I'm hopeful we'll see a bit more variety in the future. Some higher altitude stuff would be nice but that pesky visibility limit is still in the way there. No reason AI bombers couldn't be sent higher up though if they'd add an AI only altitude bombing aircraft.
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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby No.504 Wellen » Thu May 17, 2018 7:17 am

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:4. The damage modelling is not convincing. In recent missions I've been taking out fighters (which always -if their wings dont fall off- seem to bellow fire and smoke) with quarter to half-second bursts from just the MGs. They don't all need to develop fires or engine failures. This would increase also the number of damaged aircraft that make it home. So the player would still get "action".

The AI is beyond ridiculously perfect at keeping planes aloft with equally ridiculous, sometimes even catastrophic amounts of damage.
The replay can't be used any more unfortunately, but I had a clip once where you could see an AI plane just flapping elevators, rudder and ailerons seemingly dozens of times a second to balance out all the damage they sustained and stay in the air.

So in short, IMO "not convincing" is putting it mildly :P
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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:49 am

Still trucking along though this single player campaign:

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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby 56RAF_Roblex » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:33 am

Why do you rely on guesses to know what the target is and what routes the bombers are taking when you have it all marked on your map in the cockpit? Is it some sort of self-imposed restriction? Surely having it marked on your map is realistic? Nicely fought dogfights.
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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:18 am

56RAF_Roblex wrote:Why do you rely on guesses to know what the target is and what routes the bombers are taking when you have it all marked on your map in the cockpit? Is it some sort of self-imposed restriction? Surely having it marked on your map is realistic? Nicely fought dogfights.


I'm not sure I follow your Roblex.
Can you reference something specific that prompted these questions?
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Re: Thought I'd try out this career mode...

Postby 56RAF_Roblex » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:32 pm

Admin (Philstyle) wrote:
56RAF_Roblex wrote:Why do you rely on guesses to know what the target is and what routes the bombers are taking when you have it all marked on your map in the cockpit? Is it some sort of self-imposed restriction? Surely having it marked on your map is realistic? Nicely fought dogfights.


I'm not sure I follow your Roblex.
Can you reference something specific that prompted these questions?


In that latest video you first of all were confused that the bombers had not dropped their bombs on what you expected to be the target then after you had had a dogfight you saw some smoke at another town and wondered if that had been the bombers target then you were not sure what direction to fly to catch up with the bombers again. The pressing to see the briefing would have told you what they were bombing and what bearing they would make after dropping.
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