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The "ubungsammunition"

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The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:34 am

This comes from Arglmauf.
The "übungsmunnition" is supposed to be a Practice Round!
This bug was reported months, possibly years ago to TF (bug tracker, report number 803).. and nothing has been done about it.
No BETA tester raised this? What were they doing? . . oh that's right, Beta testing was just a junket for a few mates lolling about playing fanny-chase.



No.54 Arglmauf wrote:Please note the 0:43 seconds shot that kills the pilot... GREAT modelling, much accurate, very worth wait.
That one shot that blows off the aileron also killed the control cables for both sides with a high likelihood.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby No.54 Arglmauf (KL-B) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:25 am

A bit of clarification (so we don't run into false impressions here):

The Übungsmunition is not the equivalent of a 20mm HE. In game, it does have an explosive component though and does cause structural damage as indicated by the control surfaces loss. From the testing I did back in ACG with a buddy, it does have a good chance of destroying components (control cables in particular). The holes it rips into surfaces are probably bigger looking than they are on the modelling side as that seems to be a shortcoming of the visual damage model when it deals with damage types (as the Übungsmunition does cause explosive damage instead of point, so you get the big damage decals instead of the small holes). I do not know how stacking damage influences the DM though (aka, multiple hits on the same section and such). From the past testing, we did not manage to saw off a wing with it.

Needless to say, the idea of a 8mm HE is quite ridiculous. The name of the ammo type already gives it away. Problem is, there are video guides like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaM5jFf5omo

which are handed around quite a lot and this is the reason the training ammo is being used quite frequently. Explanation at 11 minutes onwards. Guilty part at 11:45 or so, you can hear the gear grinding for a second when he describes how the ammo behaves in game:D

Source of this all seems to be the TF Wiki:
https://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=gerammunition

Quote: "7.92x57, S.m.K. Üb.m.Zerl. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern Übungsmunition mit Zerleger

This round does a little bit of everything. Projectile contains a small steel core, tracer composition, and has an explosive property when it strikes a solid object. Bullet has a large black tip with green sealant around the primer pocket."

Testament to TF historical research capabilities. Since I assume they do have people capable of understanding the german language in TF, I can only assume that nobody ever bothered and willingly ignored the stark disconnect in the description and the name of the bullet and the historical documentation of the ammo type.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Philstyle) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:54 am

You see this description getting used ansd re-used verbatim quite a bit, which is.. shall we say an "artistic" interpretation of the round:
"Projectile contains a small steel core, tracer composition, and has an explosive property when it strikes a solid object
"

The "explosive" part of the round is actually an internal machanism which is designed to destroy the rounds own aerodynamics (deforming it, and causing it to drop out of the sky). It should behave nothing like an HE round.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Dietrich) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:56 am

The implementation looks very dramatic on the ground, but I also wonder if there is an additional effect to cope with wind blasting when in flight.

Also, yes, the term Übungsmunition does mean "practice ammunition", but there is also an explosive 7.92mm round which explodes on impact. (In real life, I have recovered such ammunition from a Ju 88, and have found examples of exploded and unexploded rounds of this nature.)

I will dig out a photograph of an exploded one.

My suspicion is that the round itself is fine, in flight, but that it is incorrectly named. In any case, I would like to establish some more facts before pronouncing it an implementation bug or a naming bug.

Ref: http://www.mausershooters.org/k98k/8_ident.html
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby No.54 Arglmauf (KL-B) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:08 am

Admin (Dietrich) wrote:The implementation looks very dramatic on the ground, but I also wonder if there is an additional effect to cope with wind blasting when in flight.

Also, yes, the term Übungsmunition does mean "practice ammunition", but there is also an explosive 7.92mm round which explodes on impact. (In real life, I have recovered such ammunition from a Ju 88, and have found examples of exploded and unexploded rounds of this nature.)

I will dig out a photograph of an exploded one.

My suspicion is that the round itself is fine, in flight, but that it is incorrectly named. In any case, I would like to establish some more facts before pronouncing it an implementation bug or a naming bug.

Ref: http://www.mausershooters.org/k98k/8_ident.html


I would like to see documentation of that bullet because you run into a problem at the sizes. The amount of explosive you can pack into a 8mm is too little to be much of an effect. The material forming the bullet mantle becomes too strong (by pure necessity as you still need a bullet that is capable of acting as a bullet instead of shredding itself apart after leaving the barrel).

Long story short: 8mm bullet too small to carry meaningful explosive charge.

On the page you referred, there is no HE type bullet listed. Only thing coming close to that is the B-Patrone which was not an explosive type rather a bit of an incendiary type. They tested that thing on ballistic gel and it's not a ripper. Surely FAR from what we see in game.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby StG77_CountZero » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:17 am

AND its only 7.92 ammo that is able to destroy any tank ingame.
rblem is in how concusion option in it works, also rip asked in live fuking stream if this bug is fixed and they say yes, it seames they tought its fixed as that other ammo was removed.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby Admin (Dietrich) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:19 am

No.54 Arglmauf (KL-B) wrote:Long story short: 8mm bullet too small to carry meaningful explosive charge.


Yes, I agree with you. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that on the ground, the only effect is the bullet. That means the kinetic energy of the projectile and the explosive charge inside it which detonates.

However, at altitude, that small charge and impact could fragment the surface of what it hits and the 400 km/h wind against the twisted metal does the rest. I.e., a normal bullet would make a clean hole, but one with a small charge would make a "messy" bullet hole.

Ultimately, I think you're right. It certainly looks like there is a poor implementation in CloD. I'm just trying to make sure we are considering everything thoroughly, that's all.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby No.54 Arglmauf (KL-B) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:22 am

Admin (Dietrich) wrote:
No.54 Arglmauf (KL-B) wrote:Long story short: 8mm bullet too small to carry meaningful explosive charge.


Yes, I agree with you. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that on the ground, the only effect is the bullet. That means the kinetic energy of the projectile and the explosive charge inside it which detonates.

However, at altitude, that small charge and impact could fragment the surface of what it hits and the 400 km/h wind against the twisted metal does the rest. I.e., a normal bullet would make a clean hole, but one with a small charge would make a "messy" bullet hole.

Ultimately, I think you're right. It certainly looks like there is a poor implementation in CloD. I'm just trying to make sure we are considering everything thoroughly, that's all.


Ah okay. Yeah but again, until I see a proper document describing a 8mm explosive bullet, I would say you won't get the shredding necessary for such an effect. Add to this what CountZero describes that the bullet is capable of cracking a tank and you have a pretty solid case that something is off in my opinion:)
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby II./JG77_Kemp » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:39 am

I think the point of this practice ammunition was to shoot at targets that were towed by other planes. They would blow up in the air before causing any danger to the towing plane, but that does not mean that they should not do any damage at all at close ranges. I think the point was also to explode (splash) on contact, so the pilot could visually see, what he was hitting.
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Re: The "ubungsammunition"

Postby No.54 Arglmauf (KL-B) » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:46 am

II./JG77_Kemp wrote:I think the point of this practice ammunition was to shoot at targets that were towed by other planes. They would blow up in the air before causing any danger to the towing plane, but that does not mean that they should not do any damage at all at close ranges. I think the point was also to explode (splash) on contact, so the pilot could visually see, what he was hitting.


They should do damage... exactly the same as a normal Spitzgeschoss mit Kern (actually less because the Kern was not there). Because the explosive charge does not pack enough wallop to even splinter the bullet. It was not a hit indicator bullet.

http://www.waffen-welt.de/bilder/DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf

It was meant to destroy the aerodynamics of the bullet to incapacitate it after a certain distance of flight.
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